"Sampling Kept the Funk Alive"
"We're quoting this interview courtesy of New Funk Times/Funkateers International"

Trombonist Fred Wesley, probably James Brown's and Parliafunkadelicment's most influential horn arranger, released his first jazz album NEW FRIENDS in 1991 - which is when the NFT did the following interview.



New Funk Times: Maceo's first jazz album was called ROOTS REVISITED. Do you think that this description would fit your album as well?

Fred Wesley: I guess you could say that, it did involve some things that helped me grow to what I am now.

New Funk Times: What was the first kind of music that you played, did you start out with jazz?

Fred Wesley: I did, yes! My father was a musician, he had a big band, and he used to do tunes by Louis Jordan - they were my favorites! I couldn't wait till I could play in the band, and later I got into playing in small combos and learnt how to improvise. Yeah, I did play jazz first, but it wasn't long before I was into nightclubs playing blues and rhythm & blues and even some pop things. My father and I had a group together, I played drums, he played piano and we also had a trumpet, and we played all pop songs, easy-listening type music.

New Funk Times: Was the trombone your first instrument?

Fred Wesley: Actually, I started out on piano. My grandma was a piano teacher, so at age three I was sitting there playing my scales, the "Minute Waltz", Rachmaninow's "Prelude in D-Minor". But I never really wanted to play the piano because the guy I most admired in my father's band was the trombone player named Henry Freeman. He was such a gregarious type of person, he always laughed and played with me, and I wanted to be just like him when I grew up. He played trombone, so naturally I wanted to play the trombone to be like Mr. Freeman! After going through the trumpet for a little while I eventually got to trombone. And incidentally, some of the things I play is sort of from Freeman style, even today.

New Funk Times: Jumping to the present: How was working with Deee-Lite?

Fred Wesley: Oh, that was a lot of fun. They're kids, they all have a lot of respect for the things we did in the early '70s and the late '60s, and they put the music together in a new way. It's interesting, it's creative, and it's what's happening now. And I was gratified that they even wanted me to play on their album.

New Funk Times: Do you remember the first time when you listened to a record that was sampling one of your old horn lines?

Fred Wesley: I don't remember the first time, no; but I have had the experience of saying: "I don't remember doing that!" Naturally at first I was upset, because when you hear yourself on something that's making a lot of money and you're not getting paid for it, then it causes concern. But I take a philosophical view of it now - I realize that people sampling my music and James Brown's music and other people's music actually keep those people alive and keep today's listeners aware of what was before. I mean, I have a totally new career today due to sampling! We are in demand for recordings and for live performances basically because artists today are aware of who we are through sampling. I had to take that view of it - even though there's a lot of stuff I'm not getting paid for that's making a lot of money, still it shows a lot of respect for the music. Like you say, "Imitation is the greatest form of flattery" - well, I'm flattered by sampling!

New Funk Times:  Do you think that - with this promotion by the hip-hop artists - P.Funk could ever become as strong as it used to be?

Fred Wesley: I don't know if it will ever become as strong as it used to be, because they were on top then; it was the new thing then. Now it is the old thing that makes the new thing, so it could only be so big. You know, things don't go backwards - everything moves forward, and we have had our time. People who liked us then still like us now; plus, we have a new audience that we didn't have before because the kids are sampling this. So I don't think it will ever be all-the-way there again, but we will always be somewhere around.

New Funk Times: Bernie Worrell told me a great thing - he said that the recent set of Bootsy shows had the most integrated audiences he ever saw at P.Funk shows.

Fred Wesley: Well yeah, P.Funk was basically a black thing when we were doing it. But, you know, I think music today is doing a lot to bring people together. And that was evident at the Wetlands and the S.O.B. concerts in New York - people of all nationalities and colors were there, giving the P.Funk sign and singing the songs. It was kinda thrilling! Anything that brings people together, I'm in favor of it.

New Funk Times: It was great to see all the guys together again at the shoot of Bootsy's "Jungle Bass" video...

Fred Wesley: It was great to be together again! We've had some tragedy there, one of our trumpet players, Kush [Richard Griffith], is really sick - he is a diabetic, he is on dialysis, and he has since lost his sight. But he was there, still playing great trumpet; Rick Gardner who has since married and raised a lovely family in California, he was there for the first time, being away from his family, so to speak. And we were all kinda back together again, and it was a really happy experience.

New Funk Times: Are you going to work together more closely again?

Fred Wesley: I know in the case of the Horny Horns, the chemistry came back instantly - all the signals that we knew got brought back to mind real quick... I'm sure it would be no problem for us to regain that same chemistry. The question is: Will the people accept it now as they did then? And I'm not even really worried about that because, like I say, sampling has kept the music alive; but a sample is only a sample - when you see something new built off of what was old then it's gotta be fantastic! I'm pretty sure it's gonna be just as widely accepted as it was before.

New Funk Times: I guess the only problem is getting the monkey business out of the way.

Fred Wesley: That is a problem because you have these young executives and these record companies now that may or may not understand this. Some do, and those are the ones that we are trying to get to.

New Funk Times: Do you remember any P.Funk live shows that stood out?

Fred Wesley: They were all great shows, really. But I remember one in particular: one Halloween night in Houston/Texas. Somebody has a video on that where it was so for real till you almost believed that you had landed on a new place on a space-ship, that everything was new and fresh to you. You almost kinda believed the myth that night!

New Funk Times: The cutting in the studio must have been pretty crazy when you worked on so many different records - Parliafunkadelicment, Rubber Band, Horny Horns...

Fred Wesley: Luckily I didn't have to handle that part of it, I just got a track and did the best horn arrangement I could come up with. George Clinton is the master of quality control as he calls it. He was the mixer, he would put it all together and issue it out to this artist and this artist. He was the master at that, he is one of the greatest producers that I know. I'm sure it was kinda confusing to him at times, but he handled it well!

New Funk Times: On NEW FRIENDS, you rerecorded one song from the Horny Horns album A BLOW FOR ME, A TOOT TO YOU, "Peace Fugue".

Fred Wesley: I wrote that song even earlier, way back in 1972, I think. This time I was curious how it would jell together with three trombones, three instruments of the same timbre - 'cause the first time we recorded it, we did it with trumpet, alto saxophone and trombone.

New Funk Times: What were the Horny Horns albums like, were they basically cut like the other acts or did the players have more input?

Fred Wesley: Well, that was one of the problems. It was cut mostly like the other acts. We did have some input, like I got the "Peace Fugue" on a couple of albums, Maceo had a couple of tunes on there, but I would have preferred the albums to be produced in a manner where the horns had more input.

New Funk Times: When you arranged horns for P.Funk songs back then, did you get a tape of the track and then you just came up with horn lines, or how did it work out?

Fred Wesley: A couple of times I just got a bass line and a click track - I would get almost nothing! And then sometimes I would get almost a finished product, just add horns, whatever is there. But usually it would start from basically a rhythm track, which is bass, guitar, drums maybe; and then I would do the horns. The vocals were added later. But sometimes I would get little of nothing and have to make up a horn part to even a guitar! I can't remember the specific tune, but I just got a guitar part and a click track and had to make up horns for that. But, you know, all-in-all it was a challenge to make something out of nothing or to flavor something that's already happening - sometimes I would get a track that was so near to completion that it was kinda hard to find a place to put horns without overshadowing what was already there.

New Funk Times: When you do sessions for other people, do you always write down your horn arrangements, or do you sometimes make up parts on the spot?

Fred Wesley: Usually I write it down, but - oddly enough - some of the most memorable things have been made up on the spot. When I do sessions with Maceo and Pee Wee [Ellis], I very seldom write things down. We do have an amazing sense of each other, and we seem to be able to pick things up really quick from each other. However, if you have a song or track that you want a specific sound on then either me or Pee Wee would write it down.

New Funk Times: The single most-asked question to Bootsy, Maceo, you and the other guys who used to play with James Brown: What is the difference between him and P.Funk?

Fred Wesley: There's several. James Brown was the master, he was the creator, he was the founder of the funk style that we know as funk today. And George Clinton was the innovator - he took what James Brown started and took it to new heights, took it as far as it could go. James Brown was the basics and George was the elaborator.When I was with James, I did James Brown's work. I completed his creations, I followed his blueprint. But George Clinton wanted what I had learned from James and what I had become by associating with James to add to his mix, so George would say: "Give me something good!" James would say: "Do this!" That was the difference there.

New Funk Times: But James Brown also used a lot of the ideas of the musicians, didn't he?

Fred Wesley: In a lot of cases that happened - James Brown would give me horn things to write, but sometimes maybe it would he incoherent musically and I would have to straighten it out, so to speak. When it came out of my brain, it would be a lot of James Brown's ideas and my organization. The same would happen with all the other instruments. So James Brown was the instigator, he would start things, but when it was completed it would be part James Brown and part... say, Jimmy Nolen, who I think was the greatest guitar player James Brown ever had - all guitar players play what Jimmy Nolen started.

New Funk Times: Since you mentioned one of your favorite musicians - would you be able to name your favorite P.Funk rhythm section?

Fred Wesley: [laughs] Well, naturally, Bootsy... but they were all great, they all had their own thing. I mean, like, there was Boogie, Cordell Mosson, there were some things nobody could do like Boogie could do. The same with Garry Shider, Glenn Goins... Glenn was the greatest singer I ever heard... ever heard! Ever, right?! He was the greatest ! I couldn't say which was my favorite, I like all for whatever they did, for their individual thing. Of course, Bootsy was over-all the best ever, you know... [laughs]

New Funk Times: Was leaving James Brown a sudden decision or a slow development?

Fred Wesley: It was a slow development thang, you know... - Being a creative person myself you get kind of tired of doing somebody else's thing. George Clinton came to me and offered me an opportunity to "do what you wanna do, give me something good, man!" It was like, okay, you've been to college, you got your degree, your Doctor of Funk now, here's a chance of putting it into action! It was almost a natural flow into the P.Funk thing.

New Funk Times: You once described James Brown as pretty insecure.

Fred Wesley: I think one of the greatest reasons of his success is that he is never satisfied with himself, number one - he is always reaching for this new thing, he's gotta be better than everybody else. As great as he is, he is never relaxed. He might say: "I'm the greatest, I am James Brown, I have to worry about nothin'," but he is always in that pushin' situation, trying to reach that new height, trying to make that better record, always. He's never been sure of how great he is, he always reaches. And I think that's one of the things that makes him the greatest. He always thought maybe somebody might be a little better than him. Let's say he heard Michael Jackson was in the audience - then you better get ready to play the hardest gig you ever played 'cause he's gonna kill himself, and he's gonna take you with him. I mean, that was the kinda guy he was - even though Michael Jackson sat out there dying just because he was in the presence of James Brown! I saw them together one time, it was the most amazing thing you ever saw: Michael was looking at James as if he was looking at God, and James was talking fast 'cause he was nervous because Michael Jackson was in the room with him. I couldn't believe it! I thought, here are two of the greatest entertainers in the world and they affect each other in this way. But I think insecurity is inherent in all stars because they constantly reach and they constantly try to be better and better, and that's what make 'em great.

New Funk Times: How often was James Brown a pain with this attitude?

Fred Wesley: Every day! Because a person that pushes himself that hard, naturally he's gonna push other people. I'm a person who's sort of a relaxed person, I don't like a lot of pressure - James Brown was total pressure all the time! When I became the band leader I didn't have a moment when there wasn't total pressure on me. You know, I endured it and I learned from it, and I think it made me a better person because I understand there is no excuse for not doing [your best], you can do whatever, you just have to dedicate yourself and do it. So, James taught me that but it was extreme pressure, it really was.

New Funk Times: I also got the impression that you learnt to understand him better when you met people who knew him from his childhood.

Fred Wesley: Oh, sure, I did. I just heard stories... you hear people starting out of a poor childhood but you probably don't really know what a poor childhood is. I don't know for a fact, but I just heard that James really didn't have a place to live, I mean, he was totally on his own. I'm talking about a kid - five, six, seven years old - that had to fend for himself totally! This will give you an attitude, this will make you work hard, and this will make you unsure of your success even though it might be enormous. Definitely you understand people better when you understand what they've been through.

New Funk Times: Do you have any memories of peaks with James Brown, any favorite shows there?

Fred Wesley: I don't know, they were all fantastic... - Naturally, James would perform harder and pull you harder when he was so-called challenged. I remember one time in Atlanta we were on the same show with Joe Tex, and, boy, he got down that night! The band played extra-hard, too, and we killed 'em. Joe Tex wanted no part of the stage after we got through. Things like that stand out in my mind, but just playing with James Brown was a tremendous experience all by itself any night. We played and nobody came - that happened a couple of times - and it still was a great show.

I remember the first show I saw, before I started playing - you were required to watch the show a few times before he let you on stage, and you had to learn the show. I was really amazed at the production. The show was broken down into three sections - they had the opening section where the band would play a few tunes and then James would come out, he would sing a couple of pop tunes, he would do "If I Ruled The World" and then end up with "Kansas City". He would go off and change, come back and he would do a couple of slow songs. Then he would go off and change again, and when he returned he would do the real get down, get down part - "Cold Sweat" and all that stuff. The organization of the show was what amazed me the most when I first saw it. That even overshadowed the intricacies of the music, the precision of the band. There was never a dull moment, never! It got to the point now that I get so bored when I go to see some show - I'm talking about great artists! They do shows that actually would bore you stiff, 'cause I have seen James Brown shows at his height! So it's hard for me to enjoy a show, [James Brown] was the greatest show there ever was.

New Funk Times: How did he hear about you?

Fred Wesley: I was introduced to him by one of his trumpet players, Waymond Reed. He brought me and Pee Wee to the band. I had known Waymond as a jazz trumpet player, I knew him from when he was a kid. I first met him when he was playing with a circus, and he was a great jazz trumpet player; so I said: "He is playing with WHO? James Brown?" About a year later he called me and asked me if I wanted to play with James Brown. I said: "Well, if you're doing it, I'll do it, too!"
When introduced me to James in the dressing room, James was looking into the mirror, fixing his hair; he kinda looked around and saw that I was a little overweight. First thing he said to me: "Can you dance, son?" [laughs] I play the trombone, and he asked me if I can dance... and I found out later, why.

New Funk Times: That must have been quite a change for you when you went on the road with P.Funk for the first time, after experiencing such a drill sergeant...

Fred Wesley: ...yeah, suddenly it was: "Ain't nothing but a party!" [laughs] - Yeah, it was like being let out of jail. But I rather look at it as being let out of school; if you know how to carry yourself and handle yourself, then once you get out you know how to do it. Once you don't have that regimentation, you will still understand how to conduct yourself.

New Funk Times: How involved were the record companies when you recorded with James Brown and P.Funk?

Fred Wesley: The companies never said anything to James, they just waited for it - when he brought it to them, they put it out. George Clinton, every now and then a record company executive would come by and visit, just sit around, look and see what's happening, trying to get in on the fun. That's all. It was never any A&R [= artist & repertoire department] input that I know of.

New Funk Times: Was the message of Maceo's song "Let 'Em Out" very close to your heart? [This interview was done before James Brown was released - Ed.]

Fred Wesley: Sure, it means a lot to me, and I do think it's a shame that James is locked up in jail. Sure, he might have done something wrong, but I don't think the punishment was comparable to what he did. Being the great man that he is, I think it's actually doing more harm for people who look up to him as a leader and as a role model. I think keeping him in jail that long is really doing more harm for society than good.

New Funk Times: Did it surprise you that he got this kind of sentence in the South?

Fred Wesley: It really did. Even in the South it was a surprise because I've seen other stars - other people, period - who had little breakdowns like that in their character. You know, they get a slap on the wrist and they come to their senses and they straighten up and they go back to doing what they do. But this kind of sentence... it was really shocking to me. And for him to actually do so much time - I'd never thought he would stay in jail this long! I've spoken to him on the phone, he is in amazingly good spirits for what he's going through. He sounds really optimistic, healthy and happy even. Every time I speak to him he sounds great.

New Funk Times: Could you name the most important things you learnt from James Brown and from P.Funk?

Fred Wesley: Most important thing I learnt from James Brown is: If you believe in it and you back it like you believe in it, it'll happen. And what I learnt from P.Funk is, in the words of George Clinton: Free your mind and your ass will definitely follow!

Interview: Peter Jebsen


© 1991 Funkateers International - no unauthorized republication, pleez